Suns Flame Out Against the Pistons (116-86)
by jasonsuns1 on Feb 24, 2008 6:02 PM MST
31 comments
Wow, sad day, and I was so excited to see my third game on TV in the same week here in Dallas. All the happiness that came with the Boston game was equally measured with frustration in the game.
No big analysis here, just some simple comments then we can hopefully forget this game and hope either Boston or Cleveland knocks out Detroit in the playoffs to help our chances. Not that I don't think we couldn't come back and beat them, but I think we need 10-20 more games to really see what we have.
As AZ Republic said it was ugly to watch the second quarter as the Detroit out ran US!#?
My points:
a. Our defense was very poor, but its hard for any team to stop a motivated Wallace, the way he was hitting his shots. Reminded me of Duncan, he just wasn't missing.
b. At the Boston game we were running weaves and picks and cuts at the free throw line, it reminded me of the things my dad taught me as a kid when playing. My all time favorite thing he taught me, I was a quick guard, and he'd teach us on defense to drive a player in one direction and at that very moment we turned him, I'd sweep in from the other side and steal. We had more coaches from other teams screaming at us (like we were cheating) than points the Lakers & Detroit put up against us. WHERE WAS THE MOVEMENT, IT JUST LOOKED AWFUL ON OFFENSE, A TOTAL COLLAPSE.
c. If Shaq doesn't improve on being able to jump and score from within 2-3 feet of the rim, we're in trouble. That's the gamble, how much can he improve...and for me, I think a lot of it is motivation, and sadly, it's very clear his comes and goes (last 2-3 years). But, I'm confident because of Hill and Amare that we can get a lot out of Shaq in the playoffs.
d. It seems our only offense in the first half was Amare, and Amare's shooting stats don't show it, but he had many attempts where he couldn't even get a shot off. Did I mention we need an outside shooter who ....drum roll....can consistently score from the outside...L.B....(ok)..but Bell is NOT THAT ANSWER...he's our defense and heart.
e. After the Boston game and the effort of the last 2 weeks by the Suns, I have never been more excited to be a fan, then today happens....
I'm going to forget about it, one lesson though, the east is tougher than the last 1-2 years.
A side note, Bill Walton is a flip flopper, I hope he appears in Black Sheep 2 as food.
I think we're going to become really familiar which teams we can destroy, and which ones destroy us, and it rests on Amare more than ever. I think Amare has trouble against 3-4 different teams, and this is one of them. As for Shaq, either he needs to get in better shape and start converting from 1 foot away, or he needs to never shoot unless its a dunk. Where was the Shaq from the last 2 games diving for loose balls, etc?
One bright spot beside a spurt from LB: DJ. This guy is quickly becoming more than just a quick relief, I think he should be played more and more.
Tough game, so many shots just didn't fall, on the crowd booing, I see both sides:
Side A: We're Suns fans, for better or worse, so we shouldn't be abandoning them.
Side B: They're playing badly, maybe a little booing will motivate them.
Personally, I'm not married to the Suns, I am to my wife, so, I think booing was in order today. As least fight harder, get ejected, fight, kick, throw shoes!!! The energy level was a quiet 2 from the Suns, where only the last 2 games it was a 10+
These players get millions of dollars, unless they're as delicate as Marion (who was watching and probably saying.."hey man...don't disrespect me....I'm much better than you think I am") I think a little booing in a game like this was called for. I want effort, I want hustle, even if we lose (like we did against the Lakers recently), at least we played hard. Not today....
LET'S BURY THIS GAME AND CHALK IT UP TO
THE
CURSE
OF
THE DAY
GAME
If we have to play in the day in the playoffs...be afraid, be very afraid.
Oh...and for some stats
Suns played bad. The Pistons played good
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Great recap
The team expects and wants interested and motivated fans and if the fans are see sloppy play they are going to boo. I am all for that.
The Phx fans btw have become much more sophisticated in their basketball knowledge. DJ get's applause b/c the fans see his effort and what he brings beyond the box score. Amare will get loud cheers for a block and on the occasion tha LB makes a decent hussle play he will hear that too. Its not like the fans just cheer dunks and three's like a few years ago. And at the same time if the team is playing with a high degree of suck they are going to hear about that. And they should.
Its not as if the crowd was boo'ing a missed jump shot or clanked free throw. We are talking about repeated back court violations and not getting the ball inbounds in 5 seconds. We are talking about missing wide open layups. And a lack of effort and heart after a certain point.
And let me just say that if you are 7'1" and make $20m/yr and are the self proclaimed savior and have promised to take the team to ring-land then you should expect to hear it if you miss wide open 1ft shots.
You will hear it from me. From the crowd. From the coach. From the media. From jasonsuns1's dad. And maybe even from your team mates (not likely). Deal with it and next time make those shots.
With leadership comes responsibility and the only way we fans can hold the team accountable is via the boo. Next time show up to play and we will have your back if you lose a tough one.
Boo.
by Seth Pollack on Feb 24, 2008 7:17 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
well said
by jasonsuns1 on Feb 24, 2008 7:32 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
On booing
by TexSUN on Feb 24, 2008 7:36 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
on booing
by jasonsuns1 on Feb 24, 2008 7:57 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
OMFG!
by Seth Pollack on Feb 24, 2008 7:22 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Detroit debacle
- They expected an old and slow Shaq that could no longer jump to slow down the Phoenix attack
- They expected a discombobulated Suns team that would struggle to integrate Shaq.
- They expected that we would miss the defense of the Matrix, that teams would slice us up from the perimeter on into the lane
Let's recognize this for what it is. We were teased by the first two games, which suggested a seamless transition to the Shaq era. The Shaq you saw yesterday is the Shaq that played in Miami this year. I don't know why he can' seem to hit those short shots. But it wasn't all him. I saw a few plays where Nash missed the open man, where Amare couldn't seem to grab a rebound, and where Hill's energy seemed to be gone. A couple times Shaq had a cutter, but threw a sloppy pass. And then you have just about everyone on the Detroit roster hitting open shots. Let's put this one behind us and concentrate on blowing out Memphis.
by Hawk42 on Feb 25, 2008 5:30 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Not only Shaq
by Seth Pollack on Feb 25, 2008 7:33 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
about the booing
They have being competing for the cahmpionship for the past 3/4 years. All the players play with energy almost every game except for Diaw and some people just because they paid U$10 for a hot dog think they can boo them.
This is not the Knicks.
I also think that supporting the team during bad games makes the players-fans more connected. If you think you're relationship with the team is just of a consumer we have different opinions about fanhood.
by Bruno on Feb 25, 2008 9:39 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Can't have it both ways
The boo'ing wasn't in the first half. The crowd got pumped after Amare's slam and the T and the energy from the team and crowd feed of eachother and lead to the run. But the Piston's killed us in the final few minutes of the half and that took everyone's wind.
In the start of the 3rd if the team had showed any life at all the crowd will have backed them.
We did cheer the few good plays even though they were meaningless and when LB got hot he was cheered. When DJ got a steal he was cheered. Heck, I even cheered Linton Jonhson making a few good plays.
But I don't have any problem at all boo'ing the craptastic play that was two half court violations and failure to inbound the ball. There's a limit.
It doesn't happen often. This isn't the Knicks. We don't boo every miss. Even Boris isn't boo'd when he touches the ball. Or even when he passes up an opportunity to drive at the rim.
The fans deserve to express their frustration and I think its a sign of how much this city cares about the team and wants them to do well.
I have no problem at all with the boo'ing in that game. Boo.
by Seth Pollack on Feb 25, 2008 10:35 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
by TwinnerA on Feb 25, 2008 9:41 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
I guess...
Shaq has been saying this is the best team he has ever been in, that they will be the most dangerous team, that he is the Kun-fu Master bla bla bla.... as a result.. people get their hopes up and then PAM! we get a reality check...As simple as that!
I'm not a fan of booing but as someone else said...I can understand why they were doing it.
I sure hope they can figure this out fast. Cause the WEST aint waiting!
by PanamaSun on Feb 25, 2008 10:32 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Shooters?
I don't really get all the calls for another shooter. The problem wasn't Bell and LB missing open looks. The problem is the spacing has changed and they aren't getting open looks. Nash isn't collapsing the D and finding the wide open guy in the corner right now. At least not against 2 great and one decent defensive team. Let's see how it all looks against the minor league Grizzlies.
Who's minutes would you take anyway. You are playing Amare and Shaq down low and right now Amare is the best mid-range shooter on the floor.
You need Diaw when Shaq is out. As painful as that is.
Hill has to be on the floor as much as possible even if he's not the greatest long range bomber. Do you reduce his minutes so Brent Barry can park in the corner and not play D?
And then our guards you have LB, Raja and Nash that can all hit the 3. If you reduce Raja's minutes and given them to a Barry type you have the same issue. No D.
And don't say "get a shooter that plays D". His name is Manu Ginobli and he makes at least $8m and is not available. You can get an old shooter like Pike or Barry or you can get a young defender like DJ. To get both you pretty much have Raja. And someday I think DJ will be that guy too.
If anything they need two things. A true backup PG that can create and a big backup Center that can play D and rebound.
Shooting isn't the problem. Getting open looks is the problem.
And btw. Who is going to double down on Shaq the way he's playing now? He doesn't look like he could score over Diaw 1:1 in the post. I hope that changes. It better change. But right now, he doesn't deserve the double team.
by Seth Pollack on Feb 25, 2008 10:47 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
DJ
by Hawk42 on Feb 25, 2008 11:09 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Future Suns team
But clearly you could see a Suns team w/ LB and DJ at the 2 along with Nash and a decent backup PG in the back court.
DJ certainly makes Bell seem more and more expendable. But, he's also just a rookie and its too soon to tell but he has the potential to be better then Bell b/c his handle is much better and he can finish and his 3pt shoot isn't horrible and will improve w/ confidence and time. Remember Bell really didn't start nailing 3's until he got here.
by Seth Pollack on Feb 25, 2008 11:18 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
DJ is no Bell
by WildYams on Feb 25, 2008 11:23 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
You could save that salary and get a young back up PG. But like you said Bell's salary is much higher so all that would have to be worked out and clearly Bell is and should be the starter for the rest of this year.
Just thinking ahead...
by Seth Pollack on Feb 25, 2008 11:45 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Odd man out
by WildYams on Feb 25, 2008 11:57 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't have DJ
On the spacing, we've only had three games so that's obviously not enough to know for sure what we have. But my initial impression (especially yesterday) is that we just have too darn many people in the paint now. Nash comes down and gets into the lane, but the defense is already there, so what's the point? Of course, at least one time, that paid off huge in the Boston game on Friday. All the Celtics were bunched up around Nash and Amare, leaving Shaq free to break off from the "huddle" for a clear path to the basket. But most of the time, it's maybe a bit of overkill to have Nash driving into the paint with Amare and Shaq (and their defenders) already there.
So, what's the solution? I'm not sure. Nash is clearly the best setup guy on the team and it's what he really loves to do, so it seems kind of a shame to waste his talents by having him just pitch the ball into Shaq then run to the three-point line while Shaq becomes the primary decision-maker. However, that would in theory space things out better, and give the Suns another shooter on the floor (and a darn good one at that). Maybe we just have to play "Shaq ball" when Shaq is on the floor and "Nash ball" when he isn't (should one of those two then come off the bench so that one them is on the floor at all times?) One thing I think we can't do, though, is continue trying to play "Nash ball" when Shaq is in the game. That just has the look of too many chiefs and not enough Indians. Unless, of course, we can figure out how to bottle that one play from the Celtics game. That one was beautiful.
by TexSUN on Feb 25, 2008 11:39 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Shaq-ball vs Nash-ball
For Shaq to truly be effective he's got to be near the basket, because he doesn't have the mobility anymore to set up on the high post or down near the corner to try to track rebounds while staying out of the way of the offense the way that someone like Dennis Rodman or Ben Wallace used to be able to do. I think the Suns really do need to explore running a high-low post set with Shaq and Amare, with Nash bringing the ball up and either dumping it into Shaq to get the inside-out game going, or by running screen-roll on the other side of the floor with Nash and Amare (with Shaq as a release valve in case Nash's defender gets picked off, and Nash gets to the rim but has the weakside defender come over to protect against the layup).
The Suns also need to re-work their fast break, because running downcourt and kicking it to Hill or Diaw in the corners is not very effective. These guys are both much, much better finishes at the rim than they are as 3-pt threats, and they should be filling the lanes like a more traditional fast breaking team does. Shaq with the outlet to Nash with Bell spotting up and Hill and Diaw on the wings for layups/dunks and Amare as your trailer will provide many more scoring opportunities, even though it's a very different looking fast break than the Suns have been running the last few years.
These types of changes are all part of integrating Shaq into the team and to compensating for missing what Marion brought to the table.
by WildYams on Feb 25, 2008 11:49 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Nash ball
http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/story/2008/2/23/14550/6191
I haven't and likely won't re-watch that debacle to see what happened when they tried this against the Pistons. Actually, chances are I will go back and re-watch some of this b/c I am dumb like that...
As for Shaq ball. First, that assumes that Shaq can actually score in the post and he hasn't really shown that yet. But assuming that he will find his range (1-2ft) and start scoring in the post then I think the plan clearly is to post him up when Nash is off the floor and try and run the offense w/ him.
As I said before - how Shaq plays away from the post is a key to making this experiment work.
Btw, at the game I overhead some guys behind use the best nickname yet.
"The Big If".
by Seth Pollack on Feb 25, 2008 1:08 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
The Big If
I'm beginning to wonder how much floor time Shaq should share with Nash (especially since Skinner seems to have disappeared since Shaq arrived). Maybe Shaq would be better employed off the bench with Barbosa when Nash takes his rests?
by WildYams on Feb 25, 2008 1:20 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Fouling Shaq
It is such a drag, the inequity in foul calls in this league. And someone did a study a while back that highlighted the ludicrous lengths defenders have gone to drawing offensive forus ("beat them to the spot"). Ususally a young big has six or seven years where they get the calls, then the game turns against them (other than Amare, for some reason, he has never gotten calls). That is what happens with Shaq. Kareem's last six or seven years can't have been fun because of the hacking and chopping defenses. It is easy to criticize Shaq, even fasionable. But the fact remains that he has been slowed down appreciably by the constant hacking, the perception that he is bullying others just because he is big, and of course, his foul shooting.
If the refs don't give Shaq a fair shake, he is going to fade away in this league. Wilt Chamberlain retired early because it ceased to be fun. He was a bad foul shooter also, and smaller guys were starting to beat on him. The difference between Shaq and Wilt (other than a world of basketball talent) was that Wilt would find ways to hit back.
One time I remember the Suns had no answer for Wilt. So the Suns put the skinny (6'8., 210 pounds) Connie Hawkins on him. Hawk played him well, denying the pass, but kept hand-checking him. Wilt became irritated and brought his forearm down on Hawk's arm hard. His arm buzzed like a stinger the rest of the game, but Wilt had made his point.
by Hawk42 on Feb 26, 2008 7:24 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Shooters
I think the Suns definitely need another shooter, because after losing James Jones, Eddie House and now Shawn Marion (and even Banks), the Suns are really pretty thin when it comes to legit 3-pt threats, and are really "the land of shooters" by reputation only at this point. Nash, LB and Raja are the only real deep threats that see any significant playing time, with Amare, Hill, DJ and Diaw being more mid-range shooting threats. Raja & LB are averaging around 38% from three, and Nash is up at 46%, but nobody else on the team is over 34% (other than Pike, who never plays). Amare, Hill, Diaw and DJ are all combining to average just over one made 3 a game, so nobody should really expect them to be hitting from deep with any regularity. The team needs another shooter like Barry if they want to keep that inside-out attack going.
The pick and roll looks very messy right now as the Suns are trying to adjust to Shaq. Jeff Van Gundy commented on it a few times during the game yesterday, about how Nash would run it and dish to someone like Diaw, who would have an open look, only to have Diaw just pass it back, forcing Nash to have to set up and try to run it again. Also, I've seen Nash run pick and roll a lot with Shaq, but I don't think I've seen him actually pass it to Shaq except maybe for that one late dunk in the Laker game. Instead it looks like when Shaq rolls to the paint it's just clogging things up for Nash, who ends up having to just dribble it back out or kick it to someone on the weakside, who rarely is wide open.
Watching Shaq get defended one on one so effectively by Amir Johnson, of all people, was really telling. One of the commenters yesterday made a great observation that Shaq used to be able to muscle people on his way to the basket, but somewhere along the line the refs started calling that an offensive foul, and now he can't really rely on his bulk on offense like that after he receives the pass. Shaq needs to focus more on setting up as low on the block as possible so that when he receives the pass he doesn't need to muscle to the basket (because he'll already be there). He's looked his best on offense when he's forced a defender to have to foul him before he even receives the entry pass. Shaq needs to not let the worry of being fouled and having to go to the line keep making him rush his layups and "chippies". I think more than anything this is what is making him miss all those 1 foot shots: he just doesn't want to face the embarrassment of being sent to the line, so he instead tries to rush the shot before he can get fouled.
by WildYams on Feb 25, 2008 11:19 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Barry update
No idea how accurate that is but Gambo generally have good sources in the team and despite acting the fool is a seasoned sports journalist from his days working at the NY newpapers.
by Seth Pollack on Feb 25, 2008 1:28 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Latest on Barry
(Sounds a bit "Orphan Annie" doesn't it?)
by TexSUN on Feb 25, 2008 5:13 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Shaq
- Don't place too much stock in what Shaq says. He's notorious for his rhetoric, but doesn't always back it up. His most famous statement is probably in regards to his free throws when he said "I'll make em when they count." For me this is telling because first of all, they all count, and second, it shows a lack of dedication to do all the little things, and instead to just supposedly apply the effort only when it is "really needed". This kind of attitude has largely defined his career. Don't expect excellence night in and night out from him, especially now that he can't get by just on talent and abilities alone. You just have to hope he really will be able to summon his A game "when it counts."
- When Shaq first got injured this year, back in late December, he was out for 8 games, then he came back and in his first two games back he had great games, getting 24 & 10 in the first game and then getting 20 & 11 in the next. But in the next two games after that he slipped back and only got 10 & 5 in both. Then he went back on the IL and missed 11 games before re-appearing against the Lakers last week. He had two good games to start and yesterday fell back a bit (though he still led the team with 11 boards). It remains to be seen where his level of consistency is going to be going forward.
- On the bright side Shaq only had two fouls yesterday in 33 minutes of play, after getting 5 in 29 minutes against LA and 4 in 26 minutes against Boston. Yesterday was the first time Shaq had less than 3 fouls in a game since December 7th, and it was only the 2nd time he'd had less than 4 since December 15th, so maybe he's figuring out how to avoid foul trouble (which really hasn't been much of a problem since he joined the Suns).
by WildYams on Feb 25, 2008 11:00 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
The Fat Attack
#1 we were leading the west before we traded Marion, our destiny was in our control and for some reason, this dumb ass Steve Kerr decides to change everything up? What a rookie GM mistake. We had things clicking and Marion was arguably our best all around player.
#2 Of all the people to go out and get, we choose to pursue an overweight, lazy, past his prime, road block named SHAQ? Come on, five years ago this would have been an incredible move but now all this move has done is made fans hope for the best and say things like "This COULD really work!" Could work? IT WAS WORKING BEFORE THE TRADE. Leave it to our lousy franchise to step in and make horrible mistakes. Two years of Western Conference finals all for NOTHING.
#3 How bad do we look out there? I know you guys think the Celtics win was big but did you actually watch the game? We played dispicable and if it wasnt for a lousy performance fron Ray Allen and Paul Peirce, we'd be crying about that loss too. We are 1-2 since Shaq (should be 0-3 but we can think Allen for sucking that night) and we have never looked more out of sync ever. The Lakers are looking like the best team on the planet with the best player and best coach and what do we have to rebuttle? OH YEAH, WE WENT AND GOT A HUGE WASTE OF SPACE NAMED SHAQ TO ANSWER THE LAKERS RESURGANCE. Im sorry but I'm going to have to stop watching the NBA for awhile now because this team that I grew up to love is making me want to shit blood.
Oh and how did it feel when the freakin' PISTONS came in here and basically pillaged us like 4 yr old virgins?
We suck, good night.
by phxSUNfan on Feb 25, 2008 12:49 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Tell us how you really feel :)
by Seth Pollack on Feb 25, 2008 1:00 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh...
I don't think Shaq was the right guy to trade Marion for, and for a number of reasons:
- Shaq's age and contract made him incredibly unappealing to just about everyone. He was being called an "unmovable player" because of his contract and clear decline in Miami. If the Suns were gonna take him on, they should have gotten something else in return or should have given up a lot less. Miami probably would have traded Shaq for the KT trade exception and fillers just to unload him from their salary cap, there was no need to give them a 4-time All Star like Shawn.
- Clearly what Shaq can actually bring to the team is in serious question, and was in serious question before he ever suited up. If the Suns were intent on trading Marion (which they really had to do for chemistry's sake), why didn't they go after a better low-post player? Was Emeka Okafor available? He had contract negotiation issues with the Bobcats last summer, so Charlotte knows they might lose him to free agency, maybe they would have been willing to take a chance on Marion? Maybe Samuel Dalembert and Andre Miller could have been had from the Sixers? I'd have to think that Shawn Marion's market value was higher than Steve Kerr believed it to be. Maybe this summer we'll see if I am right about that.
by WildYams on Feb 25, 2008 2:31 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
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