Nuggets Run Past Suns (126-113)

by TexSUN on Mar 5, 2008 10:27 PM MST in Game Coverage

turnover, noun

the loss of possession of the ball to the opponents, through misplays or infractions of the rules¹.
a baked or deep-fried pastry with a sweet or savory filling in which half the dough is turned over the filling and the edges sealed to form a semicircle or triangle.¹
the reason the Suns lost to the Denver Nuggets tonight.

If the Suns had acquired Shaq at the beginning of the season, and played this game in mid-November, I probably wouldn't be too upset. This was one of those "growing pains" games, where there were some promising signs if you have the luxury of looking past the not-so-promising parts that led to the final score. If it were at the beginning of the season, you look at it, take away what was good, and toss the rest aside knowing that you have plenty of time left to make it right. Of course, with just 21 games remaining and such a minuscule margin for error, the Suns don't really have that luxury. This game, as fun as it was to watch at times, still counts as a mark in the "L" column.

I'm not going to go on another rant tonight. It's late, I'm tired, and I wouldn't be saying anything I haven't already said. Most importantly, I wouldn't be saying anything the Suns don't already know. The fact is, this game came down to one thing: Too many turnovers led to too many fast break points by the Nuggets, and gave them a ton of momentum. Of course, there were other problems, like the scoring drought when Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire were taking their usual rest at the start of the second quarter, and that always-challenging defense thing. But mostly, it was the turnovers, and the Suns' inability to recover from them. The Suns had 19 turnovers, and it seemed like the Nuggets scored on just about every one. That's something that's perfectly understandable and expected when you drop a Shaq-sized boulder into the pond, which is why it's bad that we're having to do preseason during the time of year the Suns should be fine-tuning for the playoffs. Still, when each of the new "big three" end up having five turnovers apiece against a team that's terrific at making you pay for those, well, the result is unlikely to be in your favor.

All that said, maybe I'm just jaded or maybe I'm turning "Clipper fan" like srp, but I'm not going to lose sleep over this one. The first quarter was a lot of fun to watch--maybe the most fun to watch since the Matrix went to Miami. Bits and pieces of the rest of the game were fine, and since the Nuggets aren't one of my "hate teams", I could even recognize it as an entertaining game overall, even though my team came out on the (very) wrong end. I just wish it were still November is all.

Player of the Game: Allen Iverson gets the nod for torching the Suns with 31 points, 12 assists, and 5 rebounds. The assists were especially impressive, since Anthony Johnson also had 11 of his own.

Runner-Up: Steve Nash contributed to the turnover problem, but he's also the only Sun who played enough minutes to matter and still avoided the negative plus/minus. He also gets some extra credit for being the driving force behind that entertaining first quarter. 12 points, 13 assists, and 4 rebounds with the five giveaways isn't his finest work, but it gets it done tonight.

Inquiring Minds Want to Know: With four and a half minutes remaining in the fourth quarter, and the Suns still with hope (albeit faint hope) of mounting a late-game surge, Mike D'Antoni took Nash and Shaq out of the game. Shaq I understand--he's sat out frequently down the stretch since he arrived in Phoenix. But it's very un-D'Antoni-like to give up on a game with that much time remaining. Was he really just throwing in the towel? Was he sending a message to Nash (also an un-D'Antoni-like thing to do)? Or is something more menacing afoot?

Don't Miss: Post-game comments by ZonaFlash in the diaries.

¹First two definitions from dictionary.com. Third definition courtesy of the Suns' performance tonight.

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Comments

optimistic

I applaud your optimism, but the final score was really summed up by the halftime score. The Suns are only down by 7 points but they've given up 68! The game proved to be really over by then because the Suns weren't going to play any defense. With 10 PHX turnovers in the third, the Nuggs coasted home.

by Lakes on Mar 5, 2008 11:00 PM MST 0 recs

what makes this so frustrating

Is the suns did play defense against portland, at least the first half, and di play defense against the celtics, it's like they don't have the team desire to try very hard on defense. Probably a left over thing from the run and gun era, where defense didn't matter because the suns were going to out score you anyways. But that's not the case now,
and besides hill or bell, we're pretty empty on d on the top 6,

by jasonsuns1 on Mar 6, 2008 1:30 AM MST up 0 recs

Think, Think

How about getting in the way of Iverson. What a novel idea! I didn't see Ivey on his butt once in this game. You've gotta knock the sucker around!

'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 6, 2008 6:13 AM MST up 0 recs

Should have been a win

Even with the bad defense, the Suns should have won this game. I laugh at the notion that our bad defense is now costing us games because we used to just outscore them and now we are somehow less potent. I look at the shooting stats and see we shot 55%, but took about 16 less shots, because of the turnovers. If we get say, 10 more shots by cuting down on turnovers, and make 6, which is the percentage we were making, and say one of those 6 is a 3, well, that's 13 more points, which is the margin of defeat. Add to that the fact that Amare missed three layups that should have been dunks, and we should have won by 6. All this without improvement on defense.

Add to this the fact that it seems nobody told the Suns that JR Smith can shoot threes, at least enough to put a man on him, and also that nobody felt the need to get in Iverson's way going to the basket, and you see a different picture. The Suns should have won this game.

My point is illustrated by a sequence in the third quarter, Iverson goes straight to the basket, and nobody even tries to take a charge (that is one thing I have noticed that is missing lately - taking charges). Then on the other end, Giricek drives to the basket, and gets a hard from from Martin. Gordan misses one of two free throws.

Another time (about four times) AI goes straight at the defender, who is on his heels, initiates contact (the defender is backing away), squares up and hits the 10 fot jumper, and gets a foul shot. As long as the refs are going to call it this way, you may as well hold your ground and get a blocking call, or maybe even a charge. Allen might be able to contort his body to avoid the charge, but at least you've made the shot a little harder. I know, easier said than done, Iverson has made a living on that move. Why doesn't LB try that, instead of trying to blow by everyone all of the time?

So if you cut down on turnovers, make the layups, and enforce the no-layup rule, and don't leave three point shooters alone, you win, maybe 135-125, very similar to the game Jan 7th. Seems simple. Maybe I should be coach.

'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 6, 2008 6:09 AM MST 0 recs

The Party's Over

If you start now, you can learn to accept the fact that the Suns will miss the playoffs this year and every year Sarver and Kerr are around. Sarver is too cheap and Kerr is to stupid to have it any other way.

by OneSunsFan on Mar 6, 2008 8:13 AM MST 0 recs

Foolishness

I'm so sick and tired of hearing the 'cheap' line. It simply isn't true. He bought the team for $400 million when it was worth $325 on the Forbes list. He shelled out max contracts. He signed free agents, some of which did not pan out. You are in business to make money. Selling draft picks is a dubious strategy, and trading Kurt wasn't smart, but would you incur a $16 million hit for a situational player? Are you saying we should just ignore the salary cap? That really worked for Mark Cuban.

The jury is still out on Kerr. I don't think he is stupid, but he is learning. Sounds like you're frustrated.

'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 6, 2008 8:40 AM MST 0 recs

I really like your summary, TexSun

That's pretty much how I felt about the game. The first quarter was great entertainment. When it started getting away in the second, any expectations of a victory sort of evaporated for me, and I tried to look for the good signs. Shaq's rebounds and some signs of offensive life. Seven players in double figures.

As for sitting Nash and Shaq down early, I don't think it meant anything other than that they were simply spent. The back-to-back games, the altitude, ... and the game really was over. Do you think they would've won if they'd stayed in? I can't see it. Sure, there might've been a CHANCE ... if they hadn't completely exhausted.

Anyway, I'm optimistic about tomorrow. Not so much for Sunday, but tomorrow. At least there's no danger of looking past the Jazz to Sunday since EVERY game matters now. So different from this time last season.

Let's go, Suns.

by SueB on Mar 6, 2008 9:29 AM MST 0 recs

Thanks SueB!

On the late-game benchings, I agree the Nuggets were in full control, and there was no way they weren't going win the game. But my point is that it was very un-D'Antoni-like to concede the loss with so much time remaining. Just because you, me, and the rest of the world knew it, D'Antoni normally goes for it anyway up until maybe the last couple of minutes. That said, I think he did the right thing (and I think Amare, Bell, and some others should have been right there on the bench with Steve), but it just seemed uncharacteristically early by D'Antoni standards to be throwing in the towel.

by TexSUN on Mar 6, 2008 9:54 AM MST up 0 recs

Well, let's hope it's not symbolic

Of throwing in the towel on the rest of the season. I don't think so. I think he's having to adjust to this new situation as much as - or more than - the rest of the team.

I do agree with those wondering why no DJ. Looks like Linton has taken DJ's spot in the rotation. :( I think I'll like Giricek as soon as he shows he can hit some shots.

by SueB on Mar 6, 2008 10:09 AM MST up 0 recs

Good point

Giricek has been a nice addition. I love his energy level and the fact that he can create on his own. He should improve a bit once he figures out his defensive rotations.

by AZSEAfan on Mar 6, 2008 10:33 AM MST up 0 recs

This may be stupid

but with AI and Johnson torching our backcourt, why on earth did DJ not get any PT? He is, after all, the only guard we have that can actually play defense lately. Give him some of Raja's minutes already.

Also, I know there's some Shaq hatred running rampant around here but 12 pts and 18 boards should warrant at least a mention by someone.

by AZSEAfan on Mar 6, 2008 9:37 AM MST 0 recs

we should rename thie board

THERE WILL BE (BLOOD) DJ...

when I say I'm a SUNS basketball fan, you'll take me at my word, at the end, I'll be there,

It's very obvious that D'Antoni has issues with change, I think he's in Love with Nash too much, I'd
play DJ 20-25 minutes a game for 10 games. We need speed and energy, and Nash/Bell/L.B. simply aren't giving it consistently. I'm not saying DJ is better than these 3 players, but at least he plays with high energy and the excitement and desire you'd think all nba players would play with. But, its human nature, to grow satisfied with things, getting so much money, etc.

This entire league could be a lot more fun if every player made $300,000 a year, then other pay was based off performance, not just scoring, but off defense, hustle, steals, assists, etc based off touches and position. I know it'd take quite a
lot of effort and thought to come up with a good formula, but at least then we wouldn't have players making a guaranteed $10-$15 million,

Pay per performance with a certain injury pay...if your injured, you make x amount + base.

It'll never happen, but we'd see many more players trying harder. Like college,

by jasonsuns1 on Mar 6, 2008 1:46 PM MST up 0 recs

Turnover's

I think TexSun hit it right on the head. Without the turnovers we win this game. And that's not that bad considering:

how pumped the Nugs where since they are fighting for a playoff spot and are taking a TON of heat for their lack of performance
they feel like we showed them up in that last game in Phx
and it was the back game in the back to back and the team got in to Denver at 4am

I like that they are no longer trying to run the offense through Shaq in the high post and they managed, at least early in the game, to get him the ball in the low post in good position. His interior scoring is slowly improving and that plus the fouls he drew caused the Nugs to esentially deny him the ball w/ two players and that left a LOT of open Suns shooters. That's an offensive recipe for success.

On D, I was actually not all that unhappy. There certainly were some sloppy plays like Amare not sprinting back to cover K-Mart but overall the Nugs are a potent offensive team and without Marion to shut down Melo they are going to be tough to stop. Bell on Melo is a nightmare matchup for us.

Next step is if the Suns can get on the same page and learn how to play together in the new system and cut down on the turnovers. If so they will be fine. Fine enough to get to the playoffs anyway. Beyond that its all about the matchups.

These last two games have been much better then the 4 before them so at least there's some progress to be happy with. And who knows, in another two weeks we could even be competitive again against top notch teams.

- Forever Yours,
Clippers Fan

Phx - where phew! happens

by Phoenix Stan on Mar 6, 2008 10:32 AM MST 0 recs

Why the Clips?

I'm more of a closet Warriors fan.

by AZSEAfan on Mar 6, 2008 10:34 AM MST up 0 recs

Nod to a discussion

from the other day...

Phx - where stuff h

by Phoenix Stan on Mar 6, 2008 10:36 AM MST up 0 recs

Question:

Why the fuck is Lint-man getting any PT, while DJ and Skinner sit on the bench? It makes no sense. Also, Gira had a solid game, somehow...

Walk on, walk on With hope in your heart And you'll never walk alone You'll never walk alone

by Nobs on Mar 6, 2008 11:45 AM MST 0 recs

He's on his 2nd ten day contract

So D'Antoni's trying to see as much of him on the court as possible. He's also a vet who's hungry for another 10 day, so he'll play hard.

That's my theory, at least.

by rsavaj on Mar 6, 2008 12:54 PM MST up 0 recs

Yeah, you're right

But he's not a good player, and we don't need him. What is D'Antoni trying to see?

Walk on, walk on With hope in your heart And you'll never walk alone You'll never walk alone

by Nobs on Mar 6, 2008 8:37 PM MST up 0 recs

Skinner

...was playing better then expected pre-Shaq. Why has he been benched every game since? Especially last night with Amare in foul trouble - just get the man in the game! Anywhere!

I'm sick of seeing the newest guys on one has ever played with getting minutes when we are dropping a playoff seed every other game. Skinner, DJ, Marks, Piakowski must be thinking WTF?!?

-E.

by JohnnyyGo on Mar 6, 2008 1:11 PM MST 0 recs

Re: Skinner

I think the problem with playing Skinner is that there's not really a good line-up to play him with consistently based on the current rotation--I think he's going to get minutes almost completely based on fouls and/or situational matchups.

They can't really play he and Shaq together as a sub for Amare, and right now when Shaq goes out it's really the cue to bring Boris in. And as inconsistent as Boris is, he really is needed to run the offense. I like Skinner and thought he played well, but I'm not sure where he would get minutes now. I am pretty sure he won't help the perimeter D so much, but he probably not going to make all those turnover, either.

TexSun, you're right again--this game was all about the turnovers.

by SoCalSun on Mar 6, 2008 4:02 PM MST 0 recs

Think now

Carmelo Anthony crashed the boards as hard as he worked for open looks at the basket. Bad!
http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/story.cfm/story/685601

by Fayhis556 on Mar 7, 2008 2:08 AM MST 0 recs

Bell on Melo

We are giving up a lot of size having Bell on Melo which lead to his rebounding. That and for this game unfortunately he was actaully motivated and playing hard as opposed to his more normal self

Phx - where stuff h

by Phoenix Stan on Mar 7, 2008 10:00 AM MST up 0 recs

Because misery loves company

Hmm... Some of these comments on MavsMoneyball sound awfully familiar:

http://mavsmoneyball.com/story/2008/3/6/233722/2627#commenttop

by TexSUN on Mar 7, 2008 10:40 AM MST 0 recs

Next thing you know

they will be boo'ing

Phx - where stuff h

by Phoenix Stan on Mar 7, 2008 11:40 AM MST up 0 recs

Mavs fortunes

They're about to push the panic button here. A few games ago, when they almost beat the Spurs, they were 'knocking on the etite status' door. Go figure. It is like the weather. Yesterday it was blowing snow, today it is 60 degrees and sunny.

'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 7, 2008 3:15 PM MST up 0 recs